| Lemme look at that argument! |
*There is no ethical meat.
What? There are farmers everywhere who care about, respect and properly tend their animals. What an insult to them! Maybe you don't know anyone who produces ethical meat, or buys it, but if you don't you should look for it before you make grand sweeping claims. The Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund is working hard to increase access to ethical animal foods for all people. If you are truly worried about animal welfare, ethical animal foods and support access, then check them out and support them.
*Animals never start wars.
Hmmm. Okay, so how is this an argument against eating them? Plants never start wars. People haven't argued with me about eating broccoli and I have never seen a broccoli rebel force. Furthermore, animals DO start wars. They are often times territorial, violent and brutal in defense of mates and resources. Have you ever seen a dog growl and snap at another dog who approaches his bowl? Have you ever heard of competing lion prides? This is ridiculous.
*When you start eating vegetarian/vegan you become kinder; there would be no wars if we were all vegan.
Okay, whether or not it is a viable argument that Hitler was himself a vegetarian or if it was PR hooey, this is a ridiculous assertion. There are many criminals and violent offenders in this world who do and who don't eat meat. Besides, the inverse isn't true either. I eat animal foods and it hasn't made me a thug. Not eating meat is not necessarily associated with pacifism anymore than eating meat is with aggression, animals aside. The truth is, that if we stop fighting then there would be no war. Soy hot dogs have nothing to do with it. Speaking of soy...
*A vegan/vegetarian diet is more natural.
Than what? The scores of veggie folks scarfing down fake meat substitutes, fake milk substitutes, and fake cheese substitutes so they can pretend to eat like omnivores while not actually being omnivores demonstrate the lack of honesty here. Even if only some veggies are more natural foods eating, still the bulk of vegetarians survive on highly manipulated processed foods that are largely soy based and DO NOT get me started on soy! Anyway their diets are just as processed as the standard American diet, not largely more natural. A natural diet seems to be one that can be consumed in the absence of texturized vegetable protein factories, and veganism is not consistent with this. Vegan butter substitute (margarine) is, honestly speaking, not natural while butter is.
*You can meet all you nutritional needs on a vegan diet.
Sure you can, as long you consume supplements and fortified foods, too. Supplements like B12, which because in nature is only available in animal foods, must be produced in a laboratory. Oh, and probably calcium, too, since you're not drinking milk. Hmmm, since you can't meet all your needs through diet alone, maybe the diet isn't sufficient. If the diet isn't sufficient, why are you promoting it? In times and places where the artificially produced supplements and factory fortification of fake foods stuffs aren't available then this diet would lead to illness and ultimately death. A diet that could lead to death seems like a bad diet. A really bad diet. If you are concerned about animal welfare, again get in touch with the Weston A. Price Foundation and the Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund.
* Woody Harrelson/Alicia Silverstone/other super-special celeb is vegan and recommends it.
Wow. Charlie Sheen has a bridge to nowhere to sell you. Celebrity means nothing. Actually it means less than nothing. Celebrities are known to abuse their bodies, abuse the public, abuse their position and while not all celebrities are flawed celebrity is not a guarantee of good judgment. Frankly anyone espousing this position should be drug out into the street and publicly mocked. Look at a celebrity's arguments and judge them on those not on whether or not you see them on the covers of magazines and how often.
By the way, I am pretty we'll versed in my arguments, though I do try to be nice. Both my husband and I have vegetarian sisters (Hey, girls!).Do you have a great counter-argument for the aggressive vegan or vegetarian proselytizer? I'm always looking for more!
Linking up to Fight Back Friday!

Vegetarians believe that not eating meat= not killing animals, but I once read an article written by a farmer who denounced this view. He said that when he threshes his grain fields that he kills and makes homeless tens of thousands of animals: rats, mice, birds, lizards, snakes, squirrels...
ReplyDeleteHe went on to say how dozens of foxes, coyotes and birds of prey follow around his thresher to take advantage of the slaughter to fill their bellies with the injured, frightened and newly homeless animals.
But vegetarians don't factor in the losses to the 'small' animals, they only count the big animals in their 'humanity'. At least when you eat beef, you KNOW that you are eating a cow and one cow can feed a family for a long long time. But when you eat grains, one field is killing and uprooting tens of thousands of animals...
So, how can vegetarians justify that not eating meat is more humane when grains kill far more animals per year- and kill them inhumanely- than all the animal farms could ever possibly kill.
Kerri,you are brilliant! And so right! I am having flashbacks to the "Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIHM". Clearly the blood-less diet is less than blood-less.
ReplyDeleteIf the world turned vegan - what would happen to all the farm animals? Millions and millions of milk cows unemployed. Who is going to feed them and pay the vet bills? Billions of sheep with no purpose in life - either for meat or wool. Squillions of (soon to be) feral chickens released from their sheds stalking the neighbourhoods competing for scraps. Multi-oodles of pigs set free and queued up outside the primary schools waiting - not for lunch scraps but for anything edible that is smaller or slower than they are... (Guess who that might be!) ...
ReplyDeleteOn the other side of the coin, the vacant farm land (not suitable for mass factory farming of soy and grain) could be given over to plastic factories to make the synthetic products we'd need to replace leather and wool and chemical factories to produce the vitamin and dietary supplements we'd need.
There would be a need for a massive security force to ensure compliance and to execute warrants against those suspected of having hidden stashes of frozen milk in their freezers and to prosecute and punish those recidivists who set up hidden abatoirs and dairy sheds deep in the woods to supply the black market in meat and butter. Then there would be the clean up force that would be needed to clear up the sh** all these freed animals would deposit willy nilly and to clear the carcases of the freed animals that died of starvation and disease ... and more health professionals to deal with the epidemics started by all the rotting meat from the animals that died of starvation and disease... Looking on the bright side, we'd probably have full employment. :)
Thanks for this post! I struggle with this when I talk to people who think fake meat is healthier than real meat and soy milk is better than dairy milk. I always try to be hospitable, but sometimes it's HARD!
ReplyDeleteI found you at Fight Back Friday. I'd love a visit at plusothergoodstuff (dot) blogspot (dot) com. :)
I will stop by and visit you Joanna. What a great profile pic of you! You're right that it is hard to know how to respond to these arguments. I think it is really important to be ready for it. I found myself off-kilter when I ran into a regular grocery store while I was wearing my "Butter is Framed" t-shirt. I was not really prepared for how to answer the whole question of what it meant and why it is better than margarine when the cashier asked. That's my next project.
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree with parts of this, I think that cow's milk is no more or less a natural thing for us to drink than soy or almond milk. I think drinking another animal's milk is totally unnatural & gross, especially with the way it is processed and all of the pus that ends up in it. Spinach, kale, sesame seeds & chia seeds are all better sources of calcium than cow's milk. Cow's milk causes allergies, etc. Butter is also not really that much more natural than something like Olivio, which is made from olive oil. Butter is processed, too. I think the only natural thing about animal products is the animals themselves. Eating chicken and fish makes the most sense. I went from being a vegetarian, to a naturalist conscientious omnivore. I am a fan of the paleo diet. I only eat eggs & chicken from family farms that is raised and slaughtered naturally and humanely, and fish.
ReplyDeleteInteresting post, and like militant vegans, or militant hunters full of straw man arguments.
ReplyDeleteYour baby is made of meat, why not chow down? Just don't eat the brain, it'll drive you gaga.
Our meat based diet is the leading cause of the emission of greenhouse gases. Your fridge full of beef was once a living fart machine, belching out more methane than grandpa after Christmas dinner sprouts. Breeding billions of these creatures contributes more damaging gases to the atmosphere than ALL fossil fuel transport combined.
The fart machines need feeding, and as you said, they are vegan, try feeding them meat and you get BSE and scrapie, so they must have grain. It's a well known fact that great swathes of ancient forest land is being cut down for the growth of soya, not to feed the starving in any country you care to mention, or greedy vegans, but to feed cattle so that fat westerners can have their daily dose of meat. So, by eating meat you are also consuming large amounts of soy.
The health problems that come from over consumption of meat are well documented. Diabetes II diagnoses are set to reach epidemic proportions, caused by our own lifestyle of gluttony and torpidity. Cholesterol levels in meat are sky high, due to animals not being able to roam naturally. Meat is a prime source of food poisoning, putting vulnerable people at risk. More importantly consumption of meat is a contributing factor in some cancers, as are dairy products.
B12 seems at first glance a decent argument, but falls apart on closer inspection. Millions of people every day take supplements to buoy up their diet, or take laboratory made medicines to stay alive. What's the big deal?
Meat must be the last thing you think of when your stomach growls. If you must eat meat then ensure that it is a little and not very often.
Veganism is not really about all the weak arguments presented above. It's about caring that the planet is not so damaged that future generations (like the little consumers you have produced) have a planet to call home, where they can breathe and breed.
Finally, as the ONLY animals on this earth with consciences and self expression, I find it amazing that we can justify the slaughter and butchery of another species which we raise in love and care and then send to a slaughterhouse to die in fear and pain. Does it not seem to you the biggest act of hypocrisy?
We have a great deal of evolving to do, but at the end of the day, we are beholden still to the reptile, ancient part of out brain, which has us hissing, recoiling in fear should anyone suggest that what we are doing is wrong.
Pax
To the anonymous commentor talking about the Paelo diet, you know I don't think we are talking about the same thing when we use the word processed. By processed I mean food manipulated in such a way that tecnhnologies and skills not possessed by the average person. I think you might mean unaltered in anyway. I would not consider butter to be processed (it can happen just by jiggling it, by kids do it sometimes), but Olivio is partially hydrogentated and I believe, intesified, and I don't know anyway with a hydrogen ray. But I am glad to know that at least we are both comfortable with whole animal foods like fish. This we can agree on. Thanks for your comment!
ReplyDeleteAd for the second Anon who believes my comments are "strawmne", I beg to differ. You laid out may arguments, too many to address in a comment. I wrote a whole post to deal with it all. Please see it here:
http://dyno-mom.blogspot.com/2011/07/comment.html
Hi, I'm the second Anon who wrote, my name is Carla and I was just anonymous because I don't subscribe to any of the options shown here.
ReplyDeleteI did lay out 'may' arguments and I look forward to reading your no doubt well researched and highly impartial blog post.
I Wholeheartedly agree, except with one very minor part. Just as chickens are omnivores because they will happily (and quite greedily) consume insects and other bugs, so are cows. It may not be done with intent on the part of the cow, but at least a small portion of their diet is insects. They just happen to be o the grass the cows (or other herbivores) are eating. For example sheep are infected with liver flukes by consuming the fluke's intermediate host the ant. In fact, in nature I think you would be truly hard pressed to find a creature that truly eats only plant matter.
ReplyDeleteAnon, that is a brilliant point! We can't over estimate the presence of insect in our world. I have walked through the grass and seen them, and you are right that the cows most certainly eat them, too. I am so glad that you commented! Please stop by again, you clearly have a lot to say.
ReplyDeleteHi! I am the anonymous Olivio poster. I am actually eschewing Olivio for another brand because Olivio contains whey. (Because of health issues, I'm going Gluten Free Casein Free and Caffeine Free. LOOK OUT! :(
ReplyDeleteThat being said, Olivio is not hydrogenated. Neither is Earth Balance, Spectrum Spread and a few others.
Here is my main point:
ANY ANIMAL PRODUCT BOUGHT IN A SUPERMARKET IS NOT NATURAL. It was produced/processed in a factory setting.
Unless you are getting ALL of your animal products from small, family owned farms, the process by which you get it is as unnatural as soy products. Milk is processed in factories. Pasteurized, homogenized, etc. Cows are fed government subsidized corn, when they should be eating grass. There are even factories that "clean" meat with ammonia to reduce the e-coli caused by the cattle being fed corn instead of grass.
There's nothing natural about eating ANYTHING produced by a factory farm.
If we were going to be natural, I'm guessing eating meat wouldn't be a 3x a day extravaganza, either :) It would be more like gorging on a buffalo or deer for a few days with your tribe, then living on whatever you gathered/farmed, since you wouldn't have a refrigerator.
ReplyDeleteI have friends who live like this. They have a small farm and eat only what is in season, and only eat meat when they kill it or trade w/other farmers.
I totally admire them, and wish that I could live like that.
My dietary habits are the way they are mostly to boycott factory farms. The vegetarian diet, though, is actually optimal for my blood type, and I lost weight from it and felt better, but mostly because I was actually eating less processed foods. It was also easier for me to stay away from an extra value meal when I thought about the greed, cruelty and health epidemics that I would be supporting with my purchase.
Again, I don't think we are entirely at odds. Just musing!
I think that we have more in common than meets the eye. We all believe that factory farming methods are unethical and unhealthy, despite how this translates into our eating practices.
ReplyDeleteSorry but this is an awful post and almost entirely full of strawmen. I've been vegan for 6 years and a strong animal advocate for almost that entire time. I've never (ever) encountered any of them except for the first.
ReplyDeleteYou really want me to feel bad about calling out farmers? Truly caring about another being requires putting their needs before yours. There is a very small percentage of meat that comes from better farmers, but it always involves unnecessary killing.
B-12 can be tough to get, but I wouldn't call yeast laboratory made. Your random comment about calcium is just plain wrong, and there have been studies (done by the USDA no less) showing that animal protein actually leaches calcium from bones.
To sum things up, those are almost all awful arguments to begin with and full of logical fallacies. So it's a good things I've never heard people actually using them. I sure as hell wouldn't be too excited about your ability to refute them.
Well, angry anon, you raise questions about my logic without actually stating anything that would justify your position. If you want to talk about this, then lets talk. Tell me exactly what you think I am wrong about and why. I did not falsely build up opposing arguements to knock them down, which is strawmen.
ReplyDeleteAs for the B12, I think that you will find that nutritional yeast (which I do use) has a wide array of B vitamins but only has B12 if it is fortified. Look at your labels. This site details exactly how important it is for vegans to make sure they use fortified yeast:
http://www.vegancoach.com/vegan-vitamin-B12.html
Secondly, I have never heard that animal protiens leach calcium. If it did, there would not have been mankind in Earth for all the eons before texturized vegetable protien. Site your source, please.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar03/osteo0303.htm
ReplyDeleteThere ya go. Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it's not out there.
I don't know what logic you think I need to back up my assertion other than facts. Let's go point by point.
"*There is no ethical meat." This is the only reasonable argument you list. Clearly, not everyone holds the same ethical standards. Your position on our duties towards animals or their rights dictates whether this is true or not. If one's morals are such that killing an animal is wrong, then clearly there is no ethical meat.
"*Animals never start wars." This couldn't be less relevant. Like I said earlier, I have never heard anyone make this argument and who cares if it's true or not? Whether animals start wars is completely immaterial to veg*nism.
"*When you start eating vegetarian/vegan you become kinder; there would be no wars if we were all vegan." Again, a stupid argument. Clearly untrue, but just irrelevant and I've also never heard anyone try to argue this.
"*A vegan/vegetarian diet is more natural." I've heard this one strictly as an argument against veg*nism. Doesn't really matter since it's a classic fallacy anyway.
"*You can meet all you nutritional needs on a vegan diet." This one is true, and people claim it. But it's not an argument for anything.
"* Woody Harrelson/Alicia Silverstone/other super-special celeb is vegan and recommends it." While groups do like to get celebrities to bring attention to their cause, that attention is always directed at a real argument. No one has ever said "do this because Woody Harrelson is."
These are immature, uneducated arguments. I don't know who you've actually heard them from, but yes they are certainly strawmen. (Glad you looked that up)
Anon, please keep your comments respectful. I can see how strongly you feel about your opinions but please respect my right to my own opinions and stay away from ad hominum attacks, it is unnecessary to insult me.
ReplyDeleteI am glad that you sited your source. It looks like a small scale study with only preliminary results. They indicate that the magnesium intake for both groups was the same, but I am curious about other factors that contribute the the laying down of calcium in the bones like vitamin D, especifically not D3. I would be interested in knowing other elements of their diets. As you know, not all omniovores have perfect diets.
Secondly, my basic point is that the vegan diet is not sustainable as there are no plant sources of B12. If you want to argue that this is unimportant, that even if not natural there are reasons to be vegan, then fine. But it is my position that the most nourishing diet is one that is attainable using natural foods. If you want to be vegan for different reasons, that is your right and I respectfully disagree. Please be just as respectful in my decision to be a met eater. You don't have to like my diet, you don't have to like me, you don't have to agree with me, just agree to disagree.
You're right that was a small study and I'm glad you pointed that out because I went searching for others. Here's a much larger, longer, and more interesting study specifically looking at milk consumption: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9224182 .
ReplyDeleteYou haven't addressed the fact the your article was mainly strawmen (which was my main point), and now you've shifted to the B-12 argument.
The fact that B12 needs to be synthesized does not make it unsustainable even if you don't like the manner of production. You need to offer some logic as to why the most nourishing diet is one attained with strictly "natural foods." Simply saying it is better because it is natural is a fallacious argument.
This all asides, if your entire argument hinges on not wanting to rely on fortified foods for nutrition, you still have no justification for meat as you can get those vitamins and minerals from other sources.
Hi again, Anthony. This study that you cite is different in a a key way, it is about whether or not increased consumption of milk helps to prevent hip fractures while the other is about whether or not animal proteins interfer with the laying down of calcium in bones. The first issue is not whether or not milk is bad, but whether or not more is better. I would also profer that there is a clear distinction between raw milk from properly rasied, grass-fed cows has calcium which is better absorbed because of active phosphatase. This enzyme is critical in calcium absorbtion. See http://www.mercola.com/article/milk/no-milk.htm. Dr. Mercola is an advocate of raw milk from pastured cows.
ReplyDeleteThe arguments I addressed may not be the best ones for veganism according to your measures but it does not mean that they are not made or that my answers to them aren't valid.
Ultimately, for me, the most convincing argument for eating animal foods is B12. Since we cannot get it from natural sources except in animal form and it is critical for life, we have a need for animal foods. This is my justification for eating meat. It may not satisfy you if your primary principles are different than mine. If fortified foods permit you to eat in a manner you consider just, and you seem deeply concerned with being just, then that is your decision.
My job is not to convince you to eat as I do. My post was not about converting vegans. My post was about supporting omnivores when they are subjected to criticism. Clearly we have a difference of opinion on whether or not meat is just.
I think that from a theological view, from an Artistotilian view, from a Thomistic view that we need animal foods because we need B12. Because we need it, I see it as just. If you believe that despite what we may or may not need, no death is just this is a different question.
I certainly wouldn't trust anything Mercola has to say and neither should you. http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/mercola.html
ReplyDeleteI can barely see that page without signing up for his newsletter, but I do see no references for those claim.
The similarity in those studies is consumption of animal protein correlating with fracture rates/bone density. This has nothing to do with raw/pasteurized milk. Here's one more for ya: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11914191 .
For the third time, the arguments you presented were not arguments that are actually made. Is some part of this not getting to you? I know that if you have spent any time whatsoever listening/researching veg*nism, you have heard much better arguments, but you chose to respond to these.
Back to B-12, you glossed over an important argument once again.
You cannot use B-12 as a justification for eating meat, when you can get it from non-meat sources such as milk and eggs.
Anthony, the arguments I addressed are arguments I have heard and whether or not you think they are they best arguments for veganism doesn't matter. The arguments actually exist, despite what you say.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that at a minimum people need to eat eggs and milk, but then that is not veganism, is it? I am not glossing over that when I promote eating eggs and milk in addition to meat.
Lastly, I don't need a justification for eating meat. I don't see it as being a moral problem while, clearly, you do. If you want to have an argument about whether killing animals in order to eat them is moral and ethical this is not the place. My blog is not intended to convert vegans or argue that meat is ethical, it is intended to support families who follow a Weston A. Price style diet and the acceptance of meat eating as ethical is taken as a given.
Anthony, there is no A-HA moment to be had. I see no problem in eating meat. I respect your opinions and will not force you to eat meat or follow you and badger you relentlessly for not eating the way I do. I am not likely to be convinced through aggressive comments.
I am glad that you and I have had the chance to discuss these points but I think that we are unable to reconcile our ethical positions. We have different fundamental principles. You see a need to justify meat, while I don't. At this point we can simply go no further.
Was my last post not submitted correctly or did it just get sent away?
ReplyDeleteOh I had a nice, long reply, but it's gone now through user error or some other reason. Not wanting to go through the entire thing again I'll make my main point one last time.
ReplyDeleteYou presented a serious of arguments that I refuse to believe you heard from anyone over the age of 12, if you've heard them at all. It sure does matter that they are awful arguments, I'm clearly not the only one who thinks that since you were so eager to refute them. If you've actually had run-ins with vegans, I'm sure you've heard better arguments, and to choose to respond to these arguments is intellectually dishonest.
I don't care if there's an aha moment for you, I'd like these kind of attacks on a public forum to stop. You opened yourself up to this when writing, this post. If the purpose of your website is really to support followers of the Price Foundation, then why not stick to that instead of this halfhearted attempt at dismantling another belief system? You can't simultaneously claim this is not the place for this discussion... while writing a post about it.
Anthony, you make the mistake of thinking this is a public forum. It is not, it my blog. I own it. I am sorry you disagree with me and I am sorry you feel attacked but the truth is you came to my blog to a pick a fight and somehow think that I have less of a right to my opinions than you have to yours. I have not hounded you the way you have hounded me.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, the post was intended to help people like ME answer the aggressiveness of people like YOU. I am not here to argue with you. I am here to support families eating meat. You don't have to eat meat, you don't have to like that others do, but respect that we have as much right to our opinions as you do.
Anthony, stop trolling. If you would like to start a blog, come here and feel free to comment ONE time to link to it. I promise I will visit it at least once. And when I visit it, I will be more respectful than you have been here.